Urmas Kamdron is a well-known sales trainer who has worked as a marketing and sales manager for many B2B companies (Oracle, Icefire, Bestnet, 3K, Koda, etc.) and was the president of JCI Tallinn. Today, Umas works as the head of global B2B sales at Forus Group.
Why does the collaboration between sales and marketing usually not work?
Ten years ago, in a presentation, I said that marketing and sales go together like sinusoids, but the marketing sinusoid has to run a few meters ahead. At the moment, I am convinced that marketing is a sales sub-unit, the main goal of which in all international organisations is to secure sales deals.
In the case of very large and late-stage organisations, we can talk about branding, image creation and things such as PR. Based on my experience, I can say that the sole goal of most (smaller) companies' marketing activities can be to close sales deals.
There are companies where marketing and sales are in the same department, especially in startups, where everyone is together, there is a growth mindset, etc. But in many classic companies, marketing and sales are completely separate, both departments have separate bosses and there is no subordination between them.
If we are talking about the number one priority for all companies, which is bringing in revenue, then sales have to come first.
Marketing should be placed under the sales unit. If we are talking about the number one priority for all companies, which is bringing in revenue, then sales have to come first.
In the digital age, there is temptation to measure everything. At the same time, many activities, such as awareness-based activities, are not measurable. A classic example: you speak at a conference, on the radio or even on the morning show, someone sees you, Googles you and contacts you six months later. How do you get rid of the temptation to measure?
I completely agree. I have sat on both sides of the table and today I have firmly chosen the sales side. Six years ago, I started doing sales trainings for the first time in my life. I was just a practitioner who shared personal experience and I worked my way to the first page of Google’s search for sales trainers in the first year.
I received very good feedback. What did I do differently? I measured everything, and everyone should do that today. In my opinion, it is essential to do marketing activities that bring a reaction and this reaction must be measured. The question is what brings a reaction today, but it is definitely necessary to measure activities.
A presentation at a conference must also be followed by a reaction: I built my presentation according to the reaction I want to get. At Forus, where we are currently building up the platform for the taxi business, we measure reactions every time.
A very simple example: if we post a video on our Facebook page and get 1,500 views, but no new customer registration requests, then we have done something wrong. Maybe it was just a nice video to watch? My goal is never to produce just branded content, but to provoke a reaction.
Often, the reaction can come later. According to one theory, the number of people who are ready to buy today is very small. If you make a video and expect an immediate reaction, it may not work. I may see your video today, but I will only react in three months.
Absolutely, there are two perspectives here. When I came to the training scene, I only got my first reactions after six months. I worked hard for half a year, every week I created something, filmed a video, wrote an article and posted in several environments.
When my good friend Silver Rooger from Dominate Sales and I started with our radio show on Äripäev, the conversion only picked up after a year. Estonian company leaders started writing to say, "Listen guys, now we understand that you really know your stuff." It takes time to gain the audience's trust. Everyone understands that you need to educate the customer, but they don't understand that a couple of stories are not enough to build trust.
It all starts with the sales team who do the so-called outreach to potential customers. If the team divides customers into three groups, then one group has an immediate need to buy, they do a market analysis and choose the best offer. And the others will have a need in the future, and we have to be top of mind for them. The third group has no need today because they have not thought about this product or service. The sales star (not the marketer) divides the contacts between these categories.
A newsletter is the most primitive way to be top of mind for the second-mentioned customer, who will soon have to make a purchasing decision. Often, marketing shoots itself in the foot by saying that it has to take over the contact database from CRM and start sending out newsletters. Unfortunately, the entire customer base does not follow the same assumption, because they are at very different stages in their purchasing journey. One message for everyone will force many potential customers to unsubscribe.
Let's go back to sales trainings. Was it a conscious choice to do six months of work without any reaction, or were you on the verge of breaking down?
Both. At the time, I was talking with two bloggers and asked for honest feedback on when the reactions should start coming. They said that it would take time, but regularity is the key. How can you, as an entrepreneur, reach a potential customer's mind if you don't do something constantly? No matter what the message, the magic lies in repetition.

Who makes up your community in the taxi business?
When I only started, I took a list of Estonian entrepreneurs and ranked them by the number of employees. I think I have met with all the largest today. One fun fact: one could logically assume that the companies with the largest staff use taxis the most, but that is not the case, the largest users have very specific expectations.
For example, factories on the border of Tallinn, from which people need to be driven home. And if you think about the usage, the factory's usage can be dozens of times greater than that of some city center startup with a larger number of employees.
In fact, everyone needs a taxi service. The only thing to think about is whether the trip was for the benefit of business or just evening entertainment. Often, these two are so intertwined that the cost is divided between private and company expenses based on gut feeling.
Please describe the customer journey, what are the stages?
Let's start with awareness, the number one criterion. If I ask customers today why they use their existing partner, the answer is that at the time of selection there was no other partner to choose.
After awareness comes the second stage: comparison and market analysis. Let's say that my opponent is a monopoly, then the question is monopoly vs. us, i.e. whether we can serve the customer, whether we are big enough to provide quality service.
Third, there is personal preference: whether to support a small Estonian entrepreneur or an international mammoth. Recently, a very hot topic is whether the driver who sits behind the wheel knows the local language and whether he is able to cope in the heavy traffic of Tallinn.

How important is reputation and likeability created through advertising, PR, and design? The first half of the choice is rational (price, other conditions), but the second is likeability. How important is it?
I think this is the most critical factor. When I started working at Forus, Urmas Sõõrumaa asked me a very simple question: what feeling did a taxi ride give me? In fact, we evaluate services based on feelings. A private customer immediately votes with their feet and chooses another app after a bad experience.
In the case of a business customer, changing a service provider must go through a certain circle of decision-makers. The biggest problem may be that something very beautiful is promised in marketing, but the actual user experience does not match what was promised. In other words, there is a difference between marketing and implementation. The worst thing is a person's disappointment -- they are promised real gold, but they go, try it, and get a terrible experience.
How do you drive loyalty? I have used your taxi as a private person. A business customer has a contract, but I have a fresh start every day. And there are many other options. What would make me use Forus again? And conversely, what would put me off?
We have thought a lot about this. Forus Taxi was born because Urmas Sõõrumaa once said that a third of the company should belong to the managers, customers and employees. For every hundred euros spent, you get a micro-share. I think that sense of ownership is what creates a sense of belonging.

If you need to order a taxi as a private individual, you look at the price and availability. But in this competitive market, where customers are being bought off from each other, other triggers are needed. Otherwise, you look at how many minutes and kilometers and how much it costs. We believe that a sense of ownership helps build loyalty. I am convinced that in today's conservative investment climate, no one will allow themselves to burn money like our taxi giants have done so far.
But how much does being a micro-owner of a company actually motivate me? Rationally speaking, I don’t get much in return.
We launched the concept together with our partner, the platform KOOS.io, created in Estonia, and Taavi Kotka. It was clear from the beginning that this concept had to prove itself. We have boldly said that the emergence of a strong community could take a year or two.
I believe that if you have to use a taxi service and you get a micro-share for every hundred euros, then eventually enough of these micro-shares will accumulate. Then an open market will emerge, which could be compared to the stock market: shares can be sold or given away, and in the future, each consumer will be able to get their fare back, partially or fully, if they wish.

Our growth promise is that by 2027, we would like to be a billion-dollar company, including all foreign markets. Then a micro-share would cost one hundred euros, and as a business customer, you could exit with the amount you spent on transporting your employees. This is a distant expectation, but I believe in my heart that larger shareholders will continue to participate in the development of our service and use it.
Are Forus tribe members more likely to be companies or private customers?
50% of entrepreneurs offer taxi service to their employees as part of their loyalty package. 50% see that since they use taxi services in such large quantities, they want to be our future owners themselves and have a say in the development of the service. Life will show which side grows bigger.
One of the eternal dilemmas in B2B is the question of whether to target a person within the company or the company itself. How do you find the right person to sell to within a large company?
When I think of our larger customers in Estonia, the decision usually comes from the administrative department. Someone has decided that a company's taxi service will be purchased. The question when we come to the negotiating table is whether we can give them a better price. There is no talk of values or quality.
I usually involve three people so that the decision made is a management decision. If the administrative department alone has to make the decision (even if they don't use the service), then for them it all comes down to the question of kilometer vs. euro. They don't think about anything else. It's as simple as that. There needs to be more people involved to sell the value.
How do you get more than one person behind the decision-making table? How to deal with group dynamics, if, for example, one is for and the other against?
It is easier to start with the administrative manager, because he or she will get the conversation going. Since my circle of acquaintances is very wide, it is much easier to involve people further. I can say that the decision would be very skewed if others are not involved.
You have been working in this field for a long time: you know people, your social capital is large and your position is unique. But let's say a Latvian super salesman comes to Estonia and has the skills and personal qualities, but he or she doesn't know anyone. How important is personal network really?
In my 23 years of experience, I have sold to several companies three or four times, through different companies, and that speaks for itself. You build trust over time.
If a Latvian salesperson really has zero contacts, then with a valuable offer and good preparation work, he can quickly build a network here. This is a daily repetitive process, work and knowledge. Linguistic expression does not matter, nor do previous contacts, only diligence matters.
Let's say you go to Latvia or somewhere else with a clean slate, how do you get the conversation going?
The higher the position of a person, the less time they have and the more noise they make. Hundreds of thousands of people put in the effort, and no matter how good the product is, to get a conversation going and even for a moment to get attention, you need a whole structure of persuasion techniques, depending on the channels used.
My contacts come largely from two places: the local business register and LinkedIn. The order of messages, channels and activities are important in the further process. Over time, one of the most powerful ways of persuasion has been a phone call. Unfortunately, the respondent's attention span is usually very short at this point, and the order in which the seller says the words is the basis for success.
Unsuccessful salespeople send two or three emails and then give up. On the other hand, according to popular belief, you shouldn't spam anyone - they will buy if you're good enough... However, from my own experience, I can say that nothing will happen without sufficient aggression. You shouldn't be too polite and modest. Do you agree?
One hundred percent. There is no other option. I know the local landscape well, I have done sales audits for large Estonian companies, and I dare say that when it comes to continuity problems, the majority send out an offer, but don't ask whether the other party received the offer and what they think. This is zero continuity. I once made an inquiry about metal doors to ten manufacturers and only one called back.
One interesting occurrence is business ghosting. It is a well-known term in private life, but it also occurs in business. Sometimes even a familiar person ignores you, letters go to a black hole, the phone is not answered - what to do in such situation?
I have studied why ghosting happens and based on my experience, I can say that when you miss the right and appropriate time to respond, internal embarrassment arises, the person does not respond to subsequent letters, hoping that the embarrassment will go away. But it does not.
What kind of person should be hired to sell to foreign markets?
There are two options here. First, you hire an industry expert who has contacts, who can get in the door, and make the first sales more easily. The second option is to find a person who knows how to build a sales process (which is not easy at all on an international level) and you simply buy knowledge because this person will make the wheels turn. These are not people who would ultimately do the dirty work, bring the sales in. Two things are bought from those who make the ball go round: industry knowledge and contacts, or the ability to make the ball go round and help the team succeed.
We all know the prejudice that salespeople are not interested in anything other than money, but it seems to me that this is not really the case? What else motivates them?
Based on my experience, I can say that people have two motivators: young souls work for money, old ones for experience. I have definitely worked my whole life for experience, and I have accumulated a lot of it.
Simon Sinek's "why" is very important here, meaning that a person will not come for the experience if their values do not match. Why do we do something and what does the service offer to society? Everything starts with this question. I am very sure that a person can work intensively for a few years just for money, but then they disappear and never say a word about the organisation. If Simon Sinek's "why" is not in it, the effort will be short-lived.
How to avoid burnout? The number of no's is high, is it possible to grow such a thick skin that a client's refusal completely escapes you?
It doesn't escape me completely either. During my previous career, I have had 20 competitors who tried to sell the exact same service. In this case, you realise how competitive the market is and you can't take it to heart if you don't get attention. The whole fight is about attention. You can only look in the mirror and ask what else you can do.
If you get a lot of rejections, your confidence will drop. How do you keep that confidence? When you're really into it, it's hard to say that it's not about me, it's about the product. You still take it personally.
Of course, but I've added a certain playful structure here. Even if I have a very good and well-argued conversation with a potential client, but the answer is no, out of sporting interest I want to know how many months it will take to win them.
Sometimes rejection is related to timing or budget - a person simply can't make that decision right away. In the last month, I have been told that Urmas, we have not had any major problems with our current partner and I simply do not feel like dealing with this topic because I have other things on my mind.
I will end this conversation as we started it - consistency is the basis of success!
Interviewed by Hando Sinisalu
Written by Elsbeth Hanna Aarsalu